[19:04] Remi: Hello
[19:04] mikerobi: hi
[19:04] remco: hi
[19:05] Remi: Let's get started !
[19:06] remco: Remi, do you have an agenda for this meeting?
[19:07] Remi: I did, but I can't find the e-mail anymore ... And google news shows the title but when I click it says "topic not found"
[19:08] Remi: There we go:
[19:08] Remi: Things we'll talk about include: 
    - what's left to do before the next stable release (hopefully people 
 will volunteer to write some code) 
    - how to improve documentation (again, hopefully people will 
 volunteer to write docs) 
    - what are the next features that will be added 
    - and in general, anything that people want to add :-) 
[19:08] *** elvelind has joined #cherrypy.
[19:08] elvelind: hi ppl.
[19:08] Remi: hi
[19:08] remco: hi
[19:08] elvelind: has the irc session begun yet?
[19:08] mikerobi: hi
[19:09] remco: elvelind, we've just started with the agenda
[19:09] Lawouach: heya
[19:09] Lawouach: sorry for being so late
[19:09] remco: hi Lawouach
[19:09] Lawouach: came back late from work
[19:09] elvelind: remco: ah. good :)
[19:10] remco: Anyone want to add something to Remi's agenda?
[19:10] Remi: ok, so 1st topic: what's left before cherrypy-2.0-stable
[19:10] elvelind: whats the agenda so far?
[19:10] Lawouach: nope
[19:10] Lawouach: I'm fine with it
[19:10] Remi: agenda: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/cherrypy-devel/browse_thread/thread/d8dc273e533161d6/82ff3a2fbf279d65?q=irc+session&rnum=1#82ff3a2fbf279d65
[19:11] elvelind: ah. then no.
[19:11] Remi: So I just went through the tickets and marked some of them for "cherrypy-2.0-stable": http://www.cherrypy.org/query?status=new&status=assigned&status=reopened&milestone=2.0-final
[19:11] Remi: Some of these are quite easy I think
[19:12] remco: seems a fair list to me
[19:12] mikerobi: I would like better handling of file uploads
[19:12] mikerobi: Files should be treated like any other post variable and functions should recieve a path to a temp file or a file object
[19:12] Remi: mikerobi: there is a recipe for that
[19:12] mikerobi: Remi: I know, but it isn't as seemless as it should be
[19:13] remco: mikerobi, wouldn't updating the recipe be enough?
[19:13] Remi: well, add a ticket then but it won't be in 2.0-stable
[19:13] Lawouach: mikerobi, i think we should first follow the agenda ;)
[19:13] mikerobi: over eager
[19:14] Remi: so if anyone wants to work on one of these tickets, just assign it to yourself and start coding :-)
[19:14] remco: Remi, do you mind if the xyaptu is part of the 2.0 stable as well?
[19:15] Remi: I'd like to minimize the new features ...
[19:15] Remi: So let's keep it for 2.1
[19:15] remco: seems you have a future plan with more detail, care to inform us?
[19:15] Remi: well, for 2.1 the big change will be the new config system and an easier way to specify filters
[19:16] remco: indeed, the config system.. hadn't yet noticed, but it's gone from 2.0 stable...
[19:17] Remi: yeah, one step at a time :-)
[19:17] remco: seems fine to me :)
[19:17] remco: if no one else has anything for the 1 point of the agenda, we might want to move on. 
[19:17] Lawouach: yup
[19:18] Remi: ok
[19:18] Remi: the docs now
[19:18] Remi: I see a lot of contributions from people. that's great :-)
[19:18] mikerobi: is a wiki the best format over the long term?
[19:18] Remi: The challenge is to keep the quality and style consistent and to keep it up2date
[19:19] Remi: mikerobi: it's the best to allow people to contribute to it
[19:19] remco: any plan for getting more writers?
[19:19] Remi: not really ...
[19:19] Remi: any ideas ?
[19:19] elvelind: my feeling is that even if there are some docs now it would be nice if they were collected into a guide/handbook.
[19:20] mikerobi: I think at least the api should have documentation in a more versitle format
[19:20] Remi: like downloadable docs
[19:20] mikerobi: yes
[19:20] elvelind: if we outlines the chapters/subchapters of such a guide it would be easy for people to fill in the text.
[19:20] Remi: the cherrypy book :-)
[19:20] elvelind: yes.. now in pdf too ;)
[19:21] Lawouach: IMO, writing doc is only hard if we don't know what to write about. Let's decide some fields that need documentation urgently, let's be quite precise and then it might be easier to go on
[19:21] Lawouach: I like the cherrybook idea
[19:22] Remi: Well, in the ticketting system there is a component called "documentation": http://www.cherrypy.org/report/9
[19:22] mikerobi: There is always a 2 pronged aproach, postgresql uses docbook sgml, but users can add comments on the web site
[19:22] elvelind: perhaps we could a ticket for a outline of a cpbook ?
[19:23] remco: On the cherrybook, it is possible to construct a document using wiki pages. (includes on 1 page),  using SVN macro's. . this might well suffice
[19:23] Lawouach: Remi, yeah sure but it's not really structured
[19:23] mikerobi: remco: cool
[19:23] Lawouach: it doesn't tell you : Let's start here and let's go there, then there, etc...
[19:23] Lawouach: keeping those subjects would be good but we may need to structure it a bit
[19:24] Lawouach: another idea/project might be to write a real life example and explain it step by step
[19:24] Lawouach: sometimes it's even better
[19:24] remco: Lawouach: wouldn't a chief document writer be an option?
[19:24] Lawouach: Remi: might be useful yeah but who will want to do it... don't know :)
[19:24] Lawouach: it's always a problem of time, isn't it?
[19:25] kevin: there's a real life example i stumbled upon recently that seemed good.  it's at: http://www.cherrypy.org/wiki/SampleGuestbook?version=6&diff=yes
[19:25] remco: So, say we'd create a page with the contents of the cherrypy book, and start writing from there... would it help?
[19:25] mikerobi: Keep it up to date is an issue to, that is where wikis have an advantage
[19:25] mikerobi: php docs come in several formats but a notoriously innaccurate
[19:26] elvelind: I could volenteer as a doc chief. I have the time, at least I will soon.
[19:26] remco: Anyone care to object to the idea of having the book being written in the wiki
[19:26] Remi: remco: no, that's fine by me
[19:26] Remi: elvelind: great !
[19:26] remco: yeah!
[19:27] mikerobi: :)
[19:27] elvelind: using the wiki sounds like a good start at least
[19:27] Remi: elvelind: I suggest you start by creating a page "CherryPyBook" in the wiki and start writing the table of contents
[19:27] remco: i would propose CherryPyBookContents
[19:28] remco: And have the CherryPyBook page be the complete contents using macro includes
[19:28] Remi: sounds good to me
[19:29] remco: elvelind, our chief of dox, you agree?
[19:29] Remi: my job will be to add back the "export to PDF" button at the bottom of each page :-)
[19:29] elvelind: remco: hm. dont know If i understand correctly what you mean.
[19:30] remco: elvelind: using some wiki text like " [[include(topic)]]" where topic is a wikipagename, it's possible to construct copy and paste all wikipages after each other, in the same order as the contents file. This way, each chapter/subchapter is a seperate wikipage
[19:31] elvelind: remco: ah. that sounds like a good idea.
[19:31] remco: viewing this page, and clicking the pdf link (remi wll provide) allows downloading the complete book :)
[19:31] Remi: elvelind: so you're ready to start now :-) Remember to use the "preview" button a lot to prevent polluting the timeline
[19:32] elvelind: I will start sketching on something tomorrow after some sleep :)
[19:32] *** vi has joined #cherrypy.
[19:32] Lawouach: great :)
[19:32] remco: elvelind: sounds cewl
[19:32] elvelind: should we move on now?
[19:33] Lawouach: hold on
[19:33] Lawouach: kevin, yeah the samplehguestbook is a real life example
[19:33] Remi: anyone want to add anything about the documentation ?
[19:33] Lawouach: but should we have a clear and step by step tutorial arounf it
[19:33] Lawouach: to explain how to use CP?
[19:34] Remi: I personnaly think it's not that  bad ... The tutorial is great and some people have improved the "Api" page a lot ...
[19:34] Lawouach: unless it would be part of the book itself
[19:34] mikerobi: we need a clear license for the docs
[19:34] mikerobi: and policy for submissions
[19:34] elvelind: mikerobi: the same as cp?
[19:34] kevin: i'm a very new user to cp and really like the look of it.  until i found the guestbook tutorial, i was a bit lost. so building on it might be helpful to newbies like me.
[19:35] remco: We /could/ combine a few more pages in the book: inserting appedixes for the api and stuf (keeps it up to date to the second as well)
[19:35] elvelind: remco: I already thought that the api index should be a part of the book.
[19:35] Remi: license should be BSD I think. anybody has a problem with it ?
[19:36] remco: CopyLeft?
[19:36] remco: i really don't know though
[19:36] vi: Hello all, sorry to be late ;-(
[19:36] elvelind: hi vi.
[19:36] remco: hi vi
[19:36] Remi: hi vi
[19:36] Lawouach: heay
[19:36] Lawouach: I'm fine with the bsd license
[19:36] mikerobi: Remi: example code should be under the authors choice bsd / gpl
[19:37] mikerobi: my big concern is people contributing, un-aware of the license conditions
[19:37] Remi: doesn't that complicated things ? How does it work ? Do you have to preclude each code sample with the license ???
[19:38] mikerobi: I'm happy required all submissions to be under bsd license
[19:38] mikerobi: others might not be
[19:38] Lawouach: let's just state once that if someone gives some code, it will have to be under BSD license
[19:38] Lawouach: period
[19:38] mikerobi: I second
[19:38] Remi: lawouach: agreed
[19:39] elvelind: I second that too
[19:39] mikerobi: there should be a notice on the page editor with a link to the license
[19:39] Lawouach: yup
[19:40] remco: anyone care to write a wikipage about this, and maybe remi can point to it from every page?
[19:40] Remi: ok
[19:40] remco: mikerobi, Lawouach, elvelind ?
[19:41] *** fonso_ has joined #cherrypy.
[19:41] mikerobi: fine
[19:41] Lawouach: yes
[19:41] Lawouach: fine
[19:41] remco: mikerobi, thanks
[19:42] mikerobi: any time
[19:42] Remi: I think there's already a page about contributing so it should be added to that page
[19:42] mikerobi: There should also be a note on the editor page
[19:43] Remi: Right. I'll add it
[19:43] remco: mikerobi, if remi stashes a link on the footer of svn, it'll be on *every* page :)
[19:43] remco: s/svn/trac
[19:43] remco: sorry for that :)
[19:44] mikerobi: remco: aha that might work, but i was thing more like "this submission will be license under ..."
[19:44] remco: mikerobi, ok.. seems fine to me as well :)
[19:45] mikerobi: remco: having lawers in the family can change the way you think about things :)
[19:45] remco: mike: :)
[19:45] remco: so if the licensing is agreed upon, do we need to discuss more on the documentation?
[19:45] Lawouach: nope
[19:45] Remi: nope
[19:45] mikerobi: go on
[19:45] remco: i have one
[19:46] remco: still on the docs
[19:46] Remi: ok
[19:46] remco: when or who will decide what kind of documentation, should this be done now, left to the chief of docs, or the community at large?
[19:46] mikerobi: we should wait and se how it develops
[19:46] mikerobi: see
[19:47] Remi: left to the chief, but we can give him feedback :-)
[19:47] remco: kind of documentation as in: one of "real life sample", "theory", "..."
[19:47] remco: ok
[19:47] remco: thank you, 
[19:47] remco: let's continue. . 
[19:47] elvelind: trust me. I will check with you every step of the way ;)
[19:48] remco: elvelind: :)) 
[19:48] remco: next topic : "what are the next features that will be added "
[19:48] mikerobi: I'm planning on implimenting carlos' access control framework and along the way, improving session management
[19:49] Remi: great !
[19:49] remco: I would like to introduce XyaptuFilter as a standard 
[19:49] Remi: what do u mean by "standard" >
[19:49] Remi: ?
[19:49] Lawouach: remco, hmmm standard?
[19:49] remco: packaged with cp2 :)
[19:49] remco: that's it :)
[19:49] Remi: isn't it already ?
[19:49] remco: sorry if i upset anyone ;)
[19:50] remco: remi, no
[19:50] remco: you don't wanto to , untill 2.1 :)
[19:50] Remi: oh, right :-)
[19:50] Lawouach: but still
[19:50] Remi: No pb, add it to the tree after 2.0
[19:50] Lawouach: standard about what?
[19:50] Lawouach: I'm not sure to follow :)
[19:50] mikerobi: maybe there will be enough code for an examples/contributed folder
[19:50] mikerobi: by then
[19:50] Lawouach: simply part of the standard distrib you meant?
[19:50] remco: well. nothing standard... :) just that it's packaged with cherrypy, just like the xmlrpc filter is
[19:50] remco: yeah
[19:50] Lawouach: ah ok
[19:51] Lawouach: I'm fine about it
[19:51] remco: i have seen quite some good comments about it, so it might be usefull to some people
[19:51] remco: so, 
[19:51] remco: 1. acccess control filter
[19:51] remco: 2. improved session management
[19:51] remco: 3. xyaptufilter
[19:51] Lawouach: one thing that IMO is gonna be quite important is to have a higher layer atop CP2. See the discussion we had on the ML about filters. We need filters on the application level (per method)
[19:52] vi: For me top most required modules concerns access and users profiles mgt
[19:52] Remi: filters for methods = aspects
[19:52] remco: or @methods
[19:52] remco: but not filters
[19:52] mikerobi: vi: thats mostly application side,  but i'm planning to allow the session management to be tied to any database
[19:53] mikerobi: vi: that should make easyer
[19:53] remco: but please, Lawouach, feel free to provide samples, dicussion etc etc on some wiki page
[19:53] vi: mike: agreed but everybody need such modules, thus ...
[19:54] remco: do more and/or more extensive samples belong here as well?
[19:54] remco: s/samples/examples
[19:54] Remi: well, I want CP to remain low-level and a module to manage users is already high-level ...
[19:55] vi: Then why not building a modules repositary for CP2 ?
[19:55] remco: remi, low level , does that mean interfacing with apache is lowlevel as well? There's a lot of questions on that, over and over again
[19:55] Remi: There is one already (3rd-party modules)
[19:55] Remi: yeah, interfacing with Apache is low-level
[19:55] Lawouach: vi: agreed
[19:56] mikerobi: back to my contrib/ folder
[19:56] Remi: To me, there is no work to be done to interface with Apache ... mod_rewrite is your friend
[19:56] vi: lawouach: a structured repositary where users can find "high level" modules 
[19:56] remco: i agree, will this be the official cp2 statement on apache interfacing?!
[19:56] Remi: it is already
[19:56] Remi: http://www.cherrypy.org/wiki/CherryPyProductionSetup
[19:57] remco: remi: cool
[19:57] remco: on the code contributing in modules and stuff
[19:58] remco: a few days ago, i have create something called 'code-snippets', should it be removed again - or do we plan to keep it
[19:58] Remi: where is that ?
[19:58] remco: i'll try to find the url
[19:58] Remi: We've got this: http://www.cherrypy.org/wiki/CherryPyThirdPartyModules
[19:58] remco: please also check: CherryPyRecipes
[19:58] Lawouach: Remi, I like AOP and decorators are one way to solve my question but I was considering CP would have a higher (unified and offical) layer where having "filters" per method would have been required. now if you prefer to keep CP at a low level, then having a module repository as vi said is the best option :)
[19:59] Remi: lawouach: is this what you have in mind? http://www.cherrypy.org/wiki/CherryPyThirdPartyModules
[19:59] remco: we might need a page explaining the difference between '3rdparty modules', 'recipes' and 'code snippets'. , 
[20:00] Remi: Anybody want to add something about new features ?
[20:00] Remi: Another one that is planned (although maybe not in 2.1) is support for extra verbs
[20:01] remco: sounds like a 'would-be-cool' but is not required right now :)
[20:01] remco: let's keep it for 2.1+ indeed
[20:01] Lawouach: Remi: yup though we need to categorise them soon :)
[20:01] Remi: right. but some people keep asking for it :-)
[20:01] mikerobi: "would-be-cool", couldn't have said it beter
[20:02] remco: mikerobi: lol
[20:02] elvelind: need to go now. will somebody post the log later?
[20:02] Remi: yep
[20:03] remco: by elvelind
[20:03] Remi: bye
[20:03] remco: s/by/bye
[20:03] elvelind: good. see you all later.. take care
[20:03] remco: noe more features?
[20:03] Lawouach: bye elvelind 
[20:04] Remi: none that I can think of
[20:04] mikerobi: my file uploads
[20:04] mikerobi: i'll create a ticket
[20:04] Remi: ok
[20:04] Lawouach: I might add some XSLT filter but nothing planned as of yet
[20:04] Lawouach: so let's say not before 2.2 :)
[20:04] remco: file uploads: 2.1?
[20:04] remco: Lawouach :)
[20:04] Remi: 2.1 is alreayd quite busy ... make it 2.2
[20:04] Lawouach: :)
[20:05] remco: let's close it then
[20:05] remco: 2.1 has it's features planned
[20:05] remco: everyone agrees?
[20:05] Remi: yep
[20:05] mikerobi: ok
[20:05] Remi: Remco: want to enter that in the ticketting system ? (create the milestone and assign the tickets to it) ?
[20:06] remco: remi: fine, but then first let's have a resume... 
[20:06] Remi: ok
[20:06] remco: new 2.1 features:
[20:06] remco: [shoot everyone!]
[20:07] remco: 1. acccess control filter
[20:07] remco: 2. improved session management
[20:07] remco: 3. xyaptufilter
[20:07] remco: 4. file uploads
[20:07] mikerobi: what kind of timeline are you looking at?
[20:08] Remi: tough question :-)
[20:08] keir: 5. makes coffee
[20:08] mikerobi: Silly question but are you planning a 2.0 stable in the mean time
[20:08] Lawouach: well, how long have we had 2.0 stable?
[20:08] remco: for my information : these 4 are the only new features? i have the feeling i'm forgetting something
[20:09] remco: uh. 5?
[20:09] remco: :)
[20:09] Remi: remco: that's fine. add these. if we forgot one we can always add it later
[20:09] remco: remi: agreed
[20:09] Remi: mikerobi: 2.0-stable will fix these: http://www.cherrypy.org/query?status=new&status=assigned&status=reopened&milestone=2.0-final
[20:09] mikerobi: I should mention, i'm planning on imlementing an internal filter list for the access control framwork
[20:09] mikerobi: i'll impliment it as a filter, but completely hide the filter side from the users
[20:09] Lawouach: keir, lol but we're not emacs yet :)
[20:11] vi: now that content is fixed, who will do what ? (if the question is relevant ?)
[20:11] remco: that's it for the features then i guess
[20:11] Remi: mikerobi: you might want to wait for the new filter list (http://www.cherrypy.org/ticket/112)
[20:11] mikerobi: that is my plan
[20:11] Remi: remco: yes
[20:12] Remi: vi: whoever volunteers ...
[20:12] mikerobi: but i think an internal filter system will allow the addtion of core features without tinkering with the core itself
[20:12] mikerobi: in the future
[20:12] remco: mikerobi, sounds cool. 
[20:13] Remi: alright, anyone wants to add anything ? Any new CP sites to announce ?
[20:13] remco: i've thought about a few things like this as well
[20:13] mikerobi: i just gotta wait for 112 to matterialize
[20:13] Remi: There's http://orango.amix.dk
[20:13] remco: remi, about to release something new.. but not yet :(
[20:14] remco: remi: cool
[20:14] Lawouach: how backward compatible will it be?
[20:14] Remi: what ? 2.2 ?
[20:14] Lawouach: any actually
[20:15] remco: Lawouach, with 112, it will break quite some support
[20:15] Lawouach: ticket 112 looks quite a big one from 2.0b for instance
[20:15] Remi: yeah, there will be a few incompatibilities
[20:15] remco: but it's to be seen if this will get us into trouble.. 
[20:15] Lawouach: ok
[20:16] remco: i think we should provide a migration snippet once we get there
[20:16] Remi: yep.
[20:16] remco: but we're not there yet :)
[20:16] Remi: but we might as well make things right right now (before the whole world uses CherryPy ;-) )
[20:16] remco: i have another question,  if i'm permitted
[20:16] mikerobi: me too
[20:16] Remi: ok
[20:17] remco: mikerobi, go ahead
[20:17] mikerobi: shouldn't it be possible multiproccess model to spawn threads from each process on new connections?
[20:17] Lawouach: I don't know for your part, but when I used big product like Zope, I had always the feeling that because it was such a complex beast, I was doing something wrong with my code. Now, with CP it's quite the opposite, it's so simple and you have such freedom that I have the feeling I must missing something, but in fact no :)
[20:19] * remco is right back
[20:19] Remi: mikerobi: I think the thread-pool model is the best in 99% of the cases ...
[20:19] mikerobi: also I thought python processes could use multiple proccessors, but when i tried the process pool it only use 1 cpu
[20:20] mikerobi: is there a GIL on processes too?
[20:20] Remi: yeah, but again, in 99% of the dynamic apps, you'll use a DB so that'll use your 2nd CPU :-)
[20:20] mikerobi: ok, i was just curious
[20:21] Lawouach: Remi, I'm curious as well but what is your long term plan for the CherryPy project. Where do you wanna go with it?
[20:22] Remi: Wrap up CherryObject :-)
[20:22] Remi: And show the world that writing web apps in python can be even more productive than using rails :-)
[20:23] fonso_: Remi: you're gonna join the Subway project ? ;)
[20:24] Remi: nope ... CherryObject is more amitious than Subway ... From what I've read about Schevo it could be somewhat similar ... (similar to "CAPS" from Strakt as well)
[20:24] Lawouach: ah ah basically CPO is exactly what I wanted to go to with CP as well :)
[20:24] Lawouach: great news indeed
[20:25] mikerobi: what is this CherryObject?
[20:25] Lawouach: mikerobi, https://www.cherrypy.org
[20:25] fonso_: oh, I had no idea about CherryObject...
[20:26] Lawouach: Remi, are you working alone on it? 
[20:26] Remi: so far, yes
[20:26] mikerobi: aha
[20:26] Lawouach: is it going well?
[20:26] Lawouach: why don't you make it a public project as well ? :)
[20:26] Remi: well, it's like the 4th generation of this code ...
[20:26] Remi: it started 3 years ago !
[20:26] Remi: it is: http://cherryobject.python-hosting.com
[20:27] Remi: But the API will still change a lot !
[20:27] Remi: there isn't much in there yet ...
[20:27] Lawouach: ah ah a bit like me, in a year i've re written from scratch 4/5 times my code :)
[20:27] Lawouach: anyway good to know you're heading that way
[20:28] Remi: there is one very big commercial project written on the previous version already
[20:28] Remi: but I want to make it even better :-)
[20:28] Lawouach: good
[20:28] Lawouach: loooked at Ajax then I guess ;)
[20:29] remco: Remi, are you sure you want to add CherryObject to cp?
[20:29] remco: cp was supposed to be low-level remember? :)
[20:30] Remi: I'm not adding it to it ... it's a separate project
[20:30] Lawouach: I guess it'll be two different packages and we won't be "obliged" to use CPO
[20:30] remco: ok
[20:30] Lawouach: anyhow, where were we?
[20:30] Lawouach: :)
[20:30] Remi: I have to leave pretty soon ...
[20:30] Remi: so, any final words ?
[20:30] remco: mike had a question
[20:30] Lawouach: If i understand well, the most "urgent" and important project is to write some doc, isn't it?
[20:30] remco: is it answered?
[20:30] mikerobi: yes
[20:31] remco: lawouch, guess so yes
[20:31] Remi: mike ?
[20:31] Remi: lawouch: yes, and fix the bugs for 2.0-stable ...
[20:31] Lawouach: k
[20:31] remco: my question: do we need to provide more and/or extensive 'packaged' samples?
[20:32] remco: like a wiki and stuff?
[20:32] Remi: that can't hurt but it's not absolutely necessary I think
[20:32] remco: ok
[20:33] remco: that's enough for me :)
[20:33] remco: Remi, will you post the chatlog?
[20:33] Remi: will do